Time for fuel cell / hydrogen car?

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 09:34

Next car in 2 years' time will not be a diesel for sure.
Don't believe battery powered cars is the future unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology (I am sure there will be ways to charge them quicker but not sure if it will be possible to manufacture them in scale using abundant materials).

Is hydrogen the future then?

ezekial · 14 Sep 2020 at 09:50

I feel that there will be a good breakthrough with battery tech at some point although I will stick with fossil fuels for a little bit longer.

Jonnycoupe · 14 Sep 2020 at 10:06

Electrics cars are already on a journey of slow improvement.

Its fuel cell needs the breakthrough and they have batteries anyway. :confused:

</repeat of monthly EV/BEV/Electrification discussion>

sovietspybob · 14 Sep 2020 at 10:09

I doubt Hydrogen will ever be the future for passenger cars, not for a long time (15+ years anyway), virtually no manufactures are investing in any meaningful way in this so certainty not in 2 years time as there's nothing even in the pipeline from what i can see car wise let alone the huge refuelling infrastructure that would need to be put in.

Hydrogen is a lot less efficient energy wise than electric, unless you can find a magic way to produce it for free. You need to use electric to make hydrogen, then transport it to wherever, store it and dispense it, then convert it back to electric in the car. It's far simpler and a huge amount more efficient to just put the electric straight into the car.

jpaul · 14 Sep 2020 at 11:14

bbc click programme mentioned Nikola
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/8/21427009/gm-nikola-acquisition-electric-hydrogen-truck
+

the energy density of hydrogen is equal to 33.6 kWh of usable energy per kg

3x diesel, so even if fuel cell is 50% efficient versus a battery, in 6KG of weight you'd have model3 battery, but, but how much does a fuel cell weigh.

MissChief · 14 Sep 2020 at 11:17

Hydrogen sounds great but transport and storage as well as refuelling are problems. Not insurmountable problems, but problems nevertheless.

Journey · 14 Sep 2020 at 11:20

Well a Toyota Mirai weights in at 1,850Kg and has a 5.0Kg tank and has a range of 312 miles, and takes about 5 mins to fill it, the cost per Kg is ~£15, so a full tank would be £75 or about 25p per mile, seems like a bargain vs the 1.2p per mile I pay...

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 12:35

Jonnycoupe said:
Electrics cars are already on a journey of slow improvement.

Its fuel cell needs the breakthrough and they have batteries anyway.

</repeat of monthly EV/BEV/Electrification discussion>

Are you sure they need batteries?

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 12:39

MissChief said:
Hydrogen sounds great but transport and storage as well as refuelling are problems. Not insurmountable problems, but problems nevertheless.

I prefer this type of refuelling compared to chargers

Journey · 14 Sep 2020 at 12:42

ver01@ said:
Are you sure they need batteries?

Obviously, they have to convert the hydrogen into electrical energy which uses a battery in the middle.

The other negative thing is the huge amount of electricity that it takes to make liquid hydrogen, it's something along the lines of 40-60kWh of electricity to make 1Kg, so I could fill my car with electricity twice and travel over 400 miles for the equivalent of 20-30 miles of range worth of Hydrogen, and that isn't including transportation and storage of it. I can also have my own re-fuelling at home, powered by energy generated directly on my house if I want to.

Hydrogen will be great, for trucks, busses, trains, etc. but its 10+ years off being suitable for cars, until we have a huge abundance of free/clean renewable energy to create it in a clean manner then it's not really a great solution.

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 12:52

Why do you need a battery and not a capacitor?

As for the amount of electricity needed for making hydrogen, with the abundance of renewables this is becoming irrelevant.

It is happening now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production

Diddums · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:11

Hydrogen still has a long way to go in terms of R&D. If more players get involved (or one big one who goes all in like Musk) then the costs will fall off a cliff and it'll kickstart all manner of industries around it from which it will benefit immensely. At his point in time it's still at the bottom of the curve in terms of economies of scale so it's still rather expensive compared to its true potential as an energy source.

Jonnycoupe · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:21

ver01@ said:
I prefer this type of refuelling compared to chargers

Which one did you use? Sounds ideal if you like refuelling 50 times a year. Most EV will fill up overnight at home.... infact so could your hydrogen car when you use it as a plugin hybrid and fill that battery up for short journeys - why buy expensive hydrogen.

ver01@ said:
Are you sure they need batteries?

Yes because the fuel cell ramps up slower and you also need to take advantage of an EV powertrain which is regen braking !!

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:23

Jonnycoupe said:
Yes because the fuel cell ramps up slower and you also need to take advantage of an EV powertrain which is regen braking !!

Same question - why not use a capacitor?

Jonnycoupe · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:24

ver01@ said:
I prefer this type of refuelling compared to chargers

ver01@ said:
Same question - why not use a capacitor?

No enough energy, its a power storage device. Probably need a little more than 'a capacitor'

Kenai · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:28

Hydrogen needs to face up to same sort of nonsense arguments that electric does, with little basis in reality, so on that front i'll offer up - what happens when my car explodes like the Hindenburg?

Stupid dangerous stuff that should be nowhere near transport vehicles.

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:28

Jonnycoupe said:
No enough energy, its a power storage device. Probably need a little more than 'a capacitor'

There is enough energy and this is immediately available.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/superdielectrics-supercapacitor-electric-car-battery

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:30

Kenai said:
Hydrogen needs to face up to same sort of nonsense arguments that electric does, with little basis in reality, so on that front i'll offer up - what happens when my car explodes like the Hindenburg?
.

I am sure storing hydrogen has come a long way since then.

Jonnycoupe · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:35

ver01@ said:
There is enough energy and this is immediately available.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/superdielectrics-supercapacitor-electric-car-battery

Only thing i can see there is a static warehoouse size of capacitors to manage national grid inrush loads for fast charging a car - it then recharges from the grid between sessions to refill. 180Wh/Kg is about 5 years ago.

ver01@ said:
I am sure storing hydrogen has come a long way since then.

Nah hydrogen is still the same, embrittlement of adjacent metals. Next.

ver01@ · 14 Sep 2020 at 13:38

Jonnycoupe said:
Only thing i can see there is a static warehoouse size of capacitors to manage national grid inrush loads for fast charging a car - it then recharges from the grid between sessions to refill. 180Wh/Kg is about 5 years ago.

So enough energy or not?

More reading
https://interestingengineering.com/...replace-batteries-in-future-electric-vehicles

Ultracapacitors have a much higher power density than batteries. This makes them ideal for high-drain applications like powering an electric vehicle.