VARcical Decision

[BaZ87]

The problem is it becomes subjective as to what a subjective call is, I mean pretty much all straight red card offences are subjective (was it violent conduct, was it a goalscoring opportunity, was the handball deliberate etc) to some degree, but people get incensed when general concensus is a card was given erroneously.
Offsides you sometimes have a situation where it really isn't clear, so "make whatever the correct decision is" becomes subjective i.e. one person says its offside and someone else doesn't, one person gives a penalty and another doesn't. We can use this forum as an example, we frequently have differences of opinion about onfield decisions.

If we want to completely eradicate subjective decisions from VAR you basically end up with it not being used because there's the potential for nearly every decision to be subjective.

To be clear, when I say subjective decisions I mean everything other than offside, goal line technology and instances of mistaken identity. Even with offsides, the subjective element I'd leave to the onfield officials, only using the tech to determine whether the player is in an offside position or not.

 

[adidan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710020208813855066

 

[adidan]

So the panel say Jota's second yellow wasn't a yellow. Absolute shower of match officiating.

 

[Purdy]

Surely his first?
The second although a touch soft for being one foul immediately after the yellow is not really debatable, given 50% of the time

 

[SexyGreyFox]

..
I can't be bothered.

 

[C Kent]

Surely his first?
The second although a touch soft for being one foul immediately after the yellow is not really debatable, given 50% of the time

They cant review 1st yellow cards

 

[200sols]

They should move to a system like they use in Rugby, honestly so much better than this calamity.

 

[Reuben klang]

Surely his first?
The second although a touch soft for being one foul immediately after the yellow is not really debatable, given 50% of the time

Given more than 50% of the time. Blatant yellow, I don’t we shouldn’t be viewing cards in isolation as well. Stupid of jota to make that foul.

It’s the same as the so called early challenge to let him know he’s in for a game. Shouldn’t matter. Or it was my first foul. If it warrants a booking it should be.

 

[Purdy]

They cant review 1st yellow cards

Can they even review second yellows with VAR?

I was talking about that link which is post the match, they can review whichever cards they like
First is clearly a non-foul let alone booking, second is definitely inviting a booking and not a lot to debate

 

[Reuben klang]

There an argument that you don’t want every thing viewed by VAR as it would slow the game down so much. Every throw in, every corner, every free kick etc

I was in favour of just play the game as is, if there is a foul or something that the ref has missed. VAR just needs to get on the mic - “hang on lads, you’ve missed the foul by Rodri again. Yellow card and free kick/penalty w/e to x”

“Trip in the box was actually a penalty”

“He’s dived, book him”

I didn’t think it would be that hard to do or implement and is kind of what I thought VAR would be used for and would make the game better but now I don’t think they want that or can even achieve that. Mike Dean coming out with his stuff. Maybe it shouldn’t even be official refs as the VAR.

 

[C Kent]

Can they even review second yellows with VAR?

Nope, even if its for a 2nd yellow and sending off. Just the panel.

I was talking about that link which is post the match, they can review whichever cards they like
First is clearly a non-foul let alone booking, second is definitely inviting a booking and not a lot to debate

Agree on the 1st, doesnt touch the fella. 2nd one being a 50/50, you would hope there's some common sense and ref would err on the side of caution, especially as you often hear refs are slightly more lenient when there's been a massive blunder..

Anyway done and dusted, let's just hope it's a decent referring performance Sunday (lol, Teirney)

 

[BaZ87]

Can they even review second yellows with VAR?

I was talking about that link which is post the match, they can review whichever cards they like
First is clearly a non-foul let alone booking, second is definitely inviting a booking and not a lot to debate

No they can't review any yellows, first or second with VAR. There's an independent panel that looks at key decisions (including reds for 2nd yellows) post match that decided the ref was wrong to issue a 2nd yellow and send Jota off.

 

[Purdy]

For what purpose? It isn't being reversed

Who is this panel lol

 

[C Kent]

For what purpose? It isn't being reversed

Who is this panel lol

Its an independent panel set up to review VAR decisions and red cards, been around since the start of last season iirc, apparently they give recommendations for the PL and PGMOL based on their findings

Made up of 3 ex players/managers and a representative from both the PL and PGMOL

 

[BaZ87]

For what purpose? It isn't being reversed

Who is this panel lol

It's a panel of ex players and managers set-up by the PL to access officials performances and guide them on how they should be applying the laws of the game.

And before somebody comments on officials knowing the laws of the game better than x, you have to remember that the laws are not black or white and are open to interpretation. It's the League/competitions job to provide guidance to officials on what is a reckless challenge, serious foul play, deliberate handball etc etc. We hear a lot of supporters commenting on something being a handball or a red card in Europe but not being given in the PL and that is because the guidance given to officials in the PL will be different to that given by UEFA. As an example, UEFA tell their officials to be much stricter on handball than the PL.

 

[manic111]

I think you've answered the question yourself. Pre-VAR we accepted that refs wouldn't make 100% accurate decisions when they've got one chance to view an incident at full speed. With VAR there are fewer excuses for mistakes happening and as such we're not as understanding of those mistakes. I also think the way in which we're using the technology and in particular the whole 'clear and obvious' line confuses things (for fans and officials) and creates more controversy. I've always been of the view that VAR for subjective calls is a waste of time but when you have a system that allows two identical incidents to result in two completely different outcomes and be told both decisions were correct, how are supporters meant to understand and accept what you're doing? Again I'm completely against VAR for subjective decisions but if you're going to continue with it, just allow the VAR to make whatever the correct decision is - forget about whether it's wrong enough to intervene because that just creates inconsistencies and more controversy.

I agree about the communication between the ref & var and said as much earlier in the thread. Hopefully one thing that comes from this incident is that because such a minor change would have prevented what happened from happening.

The problem is that when it comes to fouls and red cards, I don't think there is an "objectively correct" standard against which to measure VAR.

I also think that most of the time (not always, but most of the time) the ref's first impression of an incident is a decent one and that can be distorted by replays at various speeds. The Jones red card is a good example of this - the ref gave him a yellow initially, which given the context seemed appropriate. Not many people in the game seem to think it was right to overturn that to a red (although if a red had been given initially then I don't think that should or would have been overturned either).

The ref is the person best able to be up to speed with the nature of the game, the feel of the game etc, and to me throwing VAR into the equation adds an element of doubt which shouldn't be there. I think they need to clarify the exact question which you can ask of VAR:
- Offsides
- Ball in or out of play
- Foul in or out of the box
- Did one player connect with another before the ball, or vice versa (or at all)
- Handballs (although I don't like it, I don't think it's a situation made worse by VAR)

I think that the ref should ask the VAR these questions, specifically, and that's it. They can then make their mind up as to whether something was or was not a foul based on the response. They should not be shown any replays or pictures themselves.

 

[Sui]

Can we replay Villa then please? They noted 2 goals should have been disallowed, and Villa should have had a man sent off!

I don’t mind the loss against Villa really, even if the goals were disallowed we just didn’t turn up.

I don’t remember the uproar being this bad last season. As a small club we were outraged but no one cared after a week really. Nothing changed then, why’s it taken it happening to a big club that changes are made?

Arguably the decisions cost us CL football, which is massive.

 

[Tombstone]

Can we replay Villa then please? They noted 2 goals should have been disallowed, and Villa should have had a man sent off!

I don’t mind the loss against Villa really, even if the goals were disallowed we just didn’t turn up.

I don’t remember the uproar being this bad last season. As a small club we were outraged but no one cared after a week really. Nothing changed then, why’s it taken it happening to a big club that changes are made?

Arguably the decisions cost us CL football, which is massive.

You could say that after a week nobody cares about this either, people are already basically telling Liverpool to shut up and accept it. Its one of the reasons why nothing will change, the VAR system and procedures wont get any better because ultimately people make it about the team involved instead of about the incident involved. Until it all happens again, rinse and repeat.

 

[C Kent]

Nothing changed then, why’s it taken it happening to a big club that changes are made?

its literally because we've kicked up a fuss that any changes are being made - if we'd have just shut up and accepted the usual non apology statement the PGMOL throw out whenever there's an outcry about VAR nothing would have been done.

 

[wildman]

Given more than 50% of the time. Blatant yellow, I don’t we shouldn’t be viewing cards in isolation as well. Stupid of jota to make that foul.

It’s the same as the so called early challenge to let him know he’s in for a game. Shouldn’t matter. Or it was my first foul. If it warrants a booking it should be.

exactly this, just like in rugby, if you go in head first / shoulder to head contact even if its your first tackle, if its reviewed and deemed to be reckless high risk etc you are getting a red card, mitigating factors non withstanding, but one of thoise mitigating issues is nothing to do with it being your first tackle / foul or that its the first minute of the game. Football refs are a combination of soft, populist and useless.